15 Apr 2009

SolidWorks, OS X, Bootcamp and the Certification Quandary



SolidWorks and Mac. There's something that's been discussed a lot on various forums and boards over the years, but as yet, there's nothing coming except eDrawings as we've already covered. There's been some pretty inaccurate reporting and inevitable smackdown ) then the petition started by Dominik Hoffman starts to resurface and apparently, its got over 4,000 signatures. For those unaware, the petition intro letter reads:
To: SolidWorks Corporation

With Apple continuing to deliver screaming-fast hardware in their G4 line of computers and the new Mac OS X's Unix underpinnings, the Macintosh would be an excellent platform for the SolidWorks 3D CAD system. By porting SolidWorks to Mac OS X, SolidWorks could truly make their flagship "The Standard in 3D Modeling Software" in eliminating its single-platform limitation. SolidWorks could quickly capture the No. 1 marketshare for Mac OS X based CAD systems. SolidWorks and Mac OS X share a common "Ease-of-Use" philosophy, without surrendering power, which would make them a perfect match.

As a user of Mac OS and/or SolidWorks on Windows I would like to make known to SolidWorks Corporation my great interest in seeing SolidWorks on Mac OS X.

Sincerely,

The Undersigned
What's interesting is that many of the signatories are students (remember that fact for later) but there's also a bit of meat in terms of commerical user comment. William J. Underwood at Tesla Motors, who felt that "A lot of us are Mac users, forced into PC by nature of available apps and Nazi IT managers!" Elsewhere, David L. Stalling, KC BioMedix commented that "Having Soliworks running natively on the iMAC would greatly aid our medical device development. Make it happen." Final one that grabbed me was Alex Wood at Ishida (an organization with over 200 seats of SolidWorks), commented that "The only thing keeping me on a Windows PC is Solidworks, i'd swap tomorrow if Solidworks was made compatible with OS X"

I shot a few questions over to SolidWorks about their Mac plans, if any and got some interesting answers from Shaun Murphy, CAD product manager at SolidWorks.

Are there any plans to extend your range of Mac offerings?
Shaun Murphy: Not at the present time. We continually monitor our customer base to gauge the level of Mac usage and at the present time there is no pressing need.
I did wonder why it was dimissed quite so easily, so I asked if Murphy could expand a little on the reasons why not. His reply was:
Shaun Murphy: Support for an operating system is a major undertaking for a CAD company due to the legacy support implications. There has to be a demonstrated need for the new operating system by the company’s customer base. Our current research indicates that support for the Mac operating system is not at a level that makes business sense, less than half of one percent of our installed base.

Shaun Murphy: We will continue to monitor this situation and respond to any movements by our installed base to increased support of the Mac platform. If enough of our users want Mac support SolidWorks will provide it.
Are there any resources available for those looking to run SolidWorks under Bootcamp?
Shaun Murphy: Running SolidWorks on a Mac using Bootcamp is not a supported option. Once Bootcamp becomes a supported option resources will be made available.
I get that it's a huge undertaking to port to OS X. SolidWorks' Windows history doesn't help at all (its easier to move unix-based code across - as Siemens has done with NX) but this last one confused me. Bootcamp lets you dual boot a Mac and running Vista or XP pretty nicely and the latest generation of hardware is pretty speedy and powerful. So why no support?

Help?: Lou Gallo over at SolidWorks HEaRD has a few things you should know about. Firstly, he's been covering SolidWorks + Mac for a good long while (here's a link to a good podcast that discusses the pro's and cons). The other thing he's done is put together a guide to patching your graphics driver (when running bootcamp) that will replace your drivers with 'professional' card drivers and let you use all that RealView goodness to its fullest extent.


RealView: it don't work on Bootcamp - unless you get down with Lou's patch instructions.


So, SolidWorks runs fine on Bootcamp, the latest chipsets are up to the job (even if RealView doesn't 'officially' work) and the machines are blazing fast. So why is SolidWorks holding back on certifying the hardware?

Questions and thoughts: What this raises for me is perhaps the whole problem with perceptions. With the release of Bootcamp and the Intel/Nvidia based machines, Apple's hardware is pretty competitive these days and we'll be carrying out some tests to see just how fast these machines run in the next month or so.

But alongside this, there are teams within many organizations that want to go Mac, but because one or two tools are Windows-native, they can't - and SolidWorks is a perfect example. Take the design teams at Trek. Mechanical design is all done using SolidWorks, but if you read this interesting story on the Apple web-site, you'll find that the graphics-based Design team uses mac exclusively. Surely there should be the potential for some consolidation. Single source hardware, the ability to use both OS X and Bootcamp - but that's being held back by SolidWorks and its seeming reluctance to certify SolidWorks for running on Bootcamp.

But I think there's also some short sightedness; particular in the lack of resources for those looking to run SolidWorks using Bootcamp. While the company's research indicates that OS X represents less than half of one percent of their installed base, I'd predict they're going to see that rise in the next few years. Why?

Remember all those students that signed the petition? That's a key thing for me. Informal research we've done and from conversations with other vendors jumping into this space, it's clear that while the desire for OSX or even just Bootcamp support isn't big in today's market, it certainly is going to be in the future - and why?

Because the kids are using Macs. And sooner or later, Kids become Professionals. And Professionals become Buyers. And that generation of potential SolidWorks users is going to be one hell of a lot more fussy about what hardware they run than previous generations. The good news is that peeps like Lou Gallo are here to help out and get this working - certification or not.

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30 Comments:

Blogger George said...

Thank you Al Dean and Lou Gallo. I appreciate this initiative a lot as well as the magazine Develop3D.

What could be very useful for me before buying Mac, it would be to view one video of SolidWorks big assembly of complex parts on the last model of Macbook Pro 17 ".

Thank you.

16 April 2009 01:51  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

That "patch" is more commonly referred to as a "hack". Why doesn't Apple write drivers to support this kind of usage? Why do you place the burden on an organization that does not make the hardware? Would you base your company's design data on a hack?

Aside from that, you accept a lot of the data that interested parties are feeding you rather naively. 1/2 of 1%? No way. It is probably closer to at least 5%. Many more would use mac if they could.

Also, you just take those numbers on the petition as if they are reliable to report.

Anyway, there are plenty of other "against" arguments that could be made here. I don't think you've hit on any particularly compelling "for" argument yet. Keep trying.

16 April 2009 02:04  
Blogger gol10dr said...

It tends to crack me up when I see word like "hack" used and how someway that tuning your hardware to get the best performance is a risky proposition. I have written comments exactly like the one I am going to write here and that is you buy a Mac because of applications you want. You run Windows because of the applications you want. This has nothing to do with Apple or Microsoft but more to do with having a tool that does the job.
In my case, I use a Mac for applications I either can't get at the caliber I can on OSX or that I can't find on Windows. But in the same vein, I use Windows for the same reasons. However on a Mac, I can use Windows and Linux on it as well. Now I have one piece of hardware that can run pretty much any application I want. You will never but a Mac if you don't have a need to run Mac software.
Bootcamp is not a "hack" nor is it any type of emulation and it runs Windows as good and any high end PC out there. The instructions I have provided to tune the card has been done in the gaming world for years, allowing users to tune, typically, their pro series cards into gamer cards. I am simply doing the reverse. The hardware is identical in most cases and the drivers are different, which allows the manufacturers charge 3X for their pro cards. In systems that have internal graphics cards that you cannot change, this is your option. If you bought the Mac Pro, for example, I can put a QuadroFX card into it and run Windows on it and get RealView graphics in SolidWorks without tuning at all. Is this any more risky? It would be like buying a Dell laptop that came with a ATI Raedon card and tuning it to work with SolidWorks better.
Should it be ported to OSX? I would love that but I agree when it makes business sense then do it. Should bootcamp be supported? Yes, because it opens up opportunity to allow users to pick the tool that works best for them. Remember SolidWorks is also not supported on XP Home but will run without any issues. I have run SolidWorks on 2 Macbook Pros now since mid 2006 and I have had less issues than any of my other laptops. SolidWorks can only support what they can have installed in their tech support department. At this point, they are not bringing Macs in the door....yet.

16 April 2009 04:51  
Anonymous jeff said...

i would say 1/2 of the students i graduated w/ in ID were mac owners and all were solidworks users. now, the problem with recent grads is that they aren't going to afford to buy solidworks very soon. And you'll be at the will of the company that hires you. I run SW's on a pc at work and my iMac at home. Sadly I don't see my work ever switching, would there be compatible vault management software to work with sw on a mac?
To me seems like the main users of sw's on macs would be smaller design firms/freelancers/independent designers. And solidworks doesn't seem as interested in that market.
anyways my work is switching to autodesk-inventor, which sounds like is coming to mac, so maybe there is hope for my work computer becoming a mac someday....

16 April 2009 05:05  
Blogger George said...

At my Mac retailer, I made a preliminary test on the last one Macbook Pro 17" (MB604LL/A). I installed the SolidWorks version 2008-2009 (Student Design Kit, 150 day license) on XP Pro via Bootcamp and the RealView seems to work without tuning the card? I shall make the others test in the next days.

16 April 2009 05:25  
Anonymous Kenneth said...

Good point about the students, the future engineers and designers. In architecture, some developers take the dual-platform strategy (for example, Graphisoft's ArchiCAD and Nemetschek's Vectorworks). I hope MCAD developers follow soon. (Furthermore, for a freelance writer like me, CAD on Mac opens up a host of new venues to pitch stories and solicit writing assignments.)

16 April 2009 06:51  
Blogger al dean said...

George - thanks for that tip, I've got a custom MacbookPro (the 15" model - custom because I can't abide the UK layout keyboard - the US is preferred) on delivery for next week, so I'll be trying it out myself to see if RealView works as you say. I'm planning to see how SolidWorks runs under both Bootcamp and emulation/virtualisation - then see how a dual OS system (HyperShot most probably) runs on both OS X and Bootcamp - see what sort of difference it makes depending on your OS choice. Should be fun, so stay tuned.

Al, Editor, MacDesign

16 April 2009 13:08  
OpenID Guitarslinger79 said...

Well one angle could be that Dassault is preparing to phase solid works out so they don't want to spend more money and time developing it for other systems.
The Part design capabilities of Catia are equal or superior to Solidworks - plus they have other workbenches that allow more freedom of design. The key is lowering the price to something even remotely affordable to small businesses and individuals.
I've been told that Dassault is working on prepping a Mac version of Catia and I do know that Catia will work perfectly fine on a bootcamp equipped MacBook Pro.
Dassault has a Catia studio group on site and they're pushing their Imagine and Shape software pretty hard. It wouldn't be totally out of the blue if they ditched solidworks and started pushing Catia as a single software solution from Design to Engineering to Simulation to Manufacture.

16 April 2009 14:29  
Anonymous alfa said...

I'm just in the position described above.
I've just finished my PHD, I've used windows up to two years from now since I've switched to mac to stay away from vista. I've used solidworks and I've appreciated its potentialities.
Now I'm opening my own start up, I need a work station for 3D cad and FEA. No problem in finding advanced FEA software for OSX (comsol which also has a nice coupling/dialogue with SW) but Solidworks does not provide any support for Macs even on Bootcamp.

Now I'm just in the point where I need to decide: unsupported Solidworks on Bootcamp or NX+OSX? I'll handle it economically I guess, see what price and conditions I get from both.

17 April 2009 09:57  
Blogger al dean said...

Guitarslinger79 - interesting idea. and yeah, I'll agree that Catia has some incredibly usable tools - the perception that its difficult to use is still something that persists, but is completely untrue. its no harder to learn and to work with than any of the more 'mainstream' products, if not easier to pick up and run with.

I'm not aware that they're developing a Catia for OSX - that's not to say that it's not happening..

But your comments about DS dumping SolidWorks and pushing Catia is a little far off the mark. Again, the future is uncertain and anything can happen, but if there's one reason that it's 'unlikely' in the foreseeable future is down to one very simple fact.

The SolidWorks group makes a very large proportion of Dassault's profit compared to the cost associated with SolidWorks' development. Catia makes a lot of revenue but has a massive development costs.

Until that changes, SolidWorks going nowhere... probably ;)

Al

17 April 2009 18:02  
Blogger Matthew said...

@ Guitarslinger79,

Dassault has no intention of dropping SolidWorks. I recently returned from Dassault HQ in France, and can tell you first-hand that SolidWorks will play a major part in the DS portfolio of products going into the next few years. Were not going anywhere.

Matthew West / SolidWorks

17 April 2009 23:49  
Blogger George said...

In my first comment, I forgot to thank Dominik Hoffman who contributes too to advance 3D CAD on Mac. Thank you!

I now wish to restore the facts further to my previous comment. After the second test on Macbook Pro 17 " at my Apple retailer: " SolidWorks version 2008-2009 (Student Design Kit, 150 day license) one XP pro via Bootcamp " I notice regrettably that the RealView feature does not work. Saddened for this erroneous comment. I can confirm on the other hand a good performance with an assembly of which contain many repetitions and fillets.

When I shall have received my Macbook Pro, because I also have to order a model " custom " I shall try to modify the driver of the graphic processor, that is the GeForce 9600M GT. I am thus interested in the information about this subject.

Sir editor of Develop3D, saddened for this false enjoyment. I am interested well in your future tests with HyperShot. I hope that this site will become the reference of 3D CAD on Mac. It would be interesting to have articles on the competitors of SolidWorks on Mac. I think here of Solid Edge Synchronous Technology who seems to be a very interesting product, but also to Inventor, Pro / E... In when a special number of 3D Develop dedicated in 3D CAD on Mac!?

18 April 2009 22:37  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

One point to note is the technical support issue. SolidWorks is supported through the reseller channer. Officially supporting Bootcamp would mean that resellers would have to buy a MAC and be proficient in MAC's and BootCamp in order to support it.

22 April 2009 07:11  
Blogger al dean said...

To George - hey man, no worries at all. The reason that this site exists is to find workaround and tuning options (as Lou put it) to find ways to work with the hardware we want - whether we're using bootcamp, paralells or OS X native tools. I've just got back from a couple of weeks of hard travelling and come home to find my 15" macbookpro waiting for me. Its up and running, has both OSX and Vista SP1 working (under bootcamp) so it'll take a few weeks to get my shit together and do somehting constructive in terms of testing and finding out where the weak points are.

One thing I am curious about is what people want to know. are you looking for OSX vs Bootcamp benchmarks, looks into the difference or impact on performance of running parallels and other emulation software? we're new at this too, so if you've got any guidance, let us know what you want, how you want it and when? what's most important in your mind?

Its pretty clear that there are a lot of challenges to come, but it seems that with many vendors now looking at OSX as a real alternative, this is going to be a growing area of interest for those of us developing products.

To anonymous regarding the VAR issue, one thing I've learned over the years is that resellers, despite all their percieved faults, are an adpatable bunch (in the UK at least) and they'll get those resources when teh customer needs them and there's a quantifiable demand. I've already had interest from a couple of tech support guys at VARs looking for additional information and we'll provide them with it so they can help out..

Al Dean

22 April 2009 08:45  
Anonymous Tony Bishop said...

I also find the '1/2 of 1 per cent' figure ridiculous. Of course it's very low if they refuse to support the platform. I run a Mac-based business in aircraft development. We very nearly went for SolidEdge because of their Mac support, but can just about cope with SolidWorks because it works well under both bootcamp and Parallels. Even now, and certainly in the future, Dassault will find a lot of new customers if (when) they support Mac (and Linux). I assume they've already made the sensible decision to migrate all development to a cross-platform set of development tools.

23 April 2009 08:48  
Blogger al dean said...

Tony

News out of COE in the last few days is that Catia V6 will be ported to OSX - so you're right about the cross platform development thing.. Take up won't be massive, because they need to find a way to make Catia a bit more affordable. I can't ever see SolidWorks porting across because there's a huge base of code that's ultra reliant on Windows development tools - yes, Parasolid can run on OSX, but the rest.. not so much.

Oh - when you say Solid Edge because of their Mac support, did you mean NX/Unigraphics? there's no mac support with Edge..

Al

23 April 2009 09:23  
Anonymous alfa said...

I confirm Solid Edge does not exist for OSX, I've asked a Siemens (Italy) salesman just a few days ago.
NX/Unigraphics has only partial support. It does support 3D-CAD but it is not, at the moment, available in all it's features (FEA integration for example). I've not yet had a decent talk with a technician in Siemens to understand exactly what features are covered. I'll keep you informed if I have more news.

As far as Solidworks+OSX (either in BootCamp or Parallels) is involved I think that both a benchmark and a technical review/checklist to compare performances with BootCamp and Parallels could be very usefull. I would also extend the comparison with Solidworks running on a windows based PC with similar hardware. Could that be possible?

Thanks!
alfa

23 April 2009 16:09  
Blogger Kevin Quigley said...

Al, it pains me that SolidWorks still refuses to certify Bootcamp. There has be a lot of "discussion" about Macs on the SW forum and it is plain that there are a lot of users out there running SW on Macs, if not as a main workstation then certainly on a laptop (I use a few associates who do this - macs for laptops, PCs for desktops).

Who is responsible for certification testing anyway? The CAD vendor or the workstation manufacturer? I really do not understand why Apple don't get their fingers out of their well padded behinds and set up a certification team for MCAD software running Bootcamp.

The other main issue of course is the lack of Apple supplied professional cards - what 1 top end Quadro in the range and no laptop solutions? Piss poor. I have heard of a couple of guys (on the SW Forum) who run Macs with Quadro FX1700s that they take out the machine and swap to when running Bootcamp as there are no Apple drivers for these for running OSX.

As for the comment about resellers having to buy Macs to support Bootcamp, well that's not the case is it. A Bootcamp Mac is a branded PC, so you don;t have resellers runnign every brand of PC do you?

No the reason for sluggish take up I think is the lack of proper certification. If I could buy a Mac laptop that has a certified card and runs RealView I'd do it tomorrow.

Having said that with the problems the latest Quadro cards are giving many SW users (just read the forums!) the whole certification process seems to have gone to pot anyway!

25 April 2009 11:00  
Blogger al dean said...

Kevin - there's one reason that the software vendors don't get mac certified and that's down to cash. its a well kept secret that most of the graphics card vendors pay the software vendors to certify their products.. but ssssh... don't tell anyone.. ;)

Al

27 April 2009 09:16  
OpenID cashsixeight said...

I've been running SW on my 24" iMac for 2 years now, without issues. I read about the realview "hack" and performed that, which is also great. Basically, the only reason I even have bootcamp is for SW, Alias, and Hypershot. I am a graduating senior in industrial design, and I work for a major tool company. We use SW here on PCs, and honestly I think it runs a bit better on my home computer. Love SW! But really... windows is just an inferior OS. It works, but it doesn't work that well. Lots of glitches and issues that prevent it from being comparable to OSX. If I had SW and Hypershot for OSX, I'd probably delete my windows partition.

07 May 2009 14:41  
Blogger Chris said...

Any news on if the new MacBook Pro's (with the SD slot) have a tweak to get the cards using realview??

07 July 2009 13:41  
Blogger al dean said...

Latest I heard (and I tried to get it patched myself) is that the hardware is locked out on the chip, meaning there's going to be very little chance of a workaround.. i would LOVE someone to prove me wrong. That said, I've been working SolidWorks a lot these last few weeks for various projects we're working on, and I haven't missed realview one little bit.

07 July 2009 13:49  
Anonymous sagens said...

The guide for patching your graphics driver in this article is for nVidia GeForce 8600M GT. Anyone know if this also works on the new MacBook Pro 15" with nVidia GeForce 9600M GT?

08 July 2009 10:38  
Blogger Ole Ilskov said...

Does these problems only include Realview? Will Photoworks be able to do photo realistic renderings as usual? I dont use realview, but do make renderings once in a while.
It would put me i a bad spot to convince my boss that i need a Mac for my next laptop and then find out i cant do my job afterwards.

Hope you can help.
Ole

04 August 2009 11:33  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

cashsixeight is a perfect example of so may people I know including myself. The guys at solidworks are missing the big picture in the most annoying way. As long as they keep making me buy Windows, I'll keep getting student versions of their program. Call it even. ;)

17 September 2009 22:50  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

The Lou hack no longer works. Is there a way to get solidworks working with an updated "fast" driver for Parallels? Anyone? I've been searching for weeks for this.

21 September 2009 19:39  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

I noticed on the apple website, that for the new mac pro, the quadro fx 4800 is listed as a separate purchase/ home install card that has the snow leopard boot camp (v3) drivers. it is also listed as certified on the Solidworks web site. Has Anyone tested this configuration?

23 September 2009 06:19  
Anonymous Greg Corke said...

To Anonymous,

The Quadro FX 4800 for Mac is different to the Quadro FX 4800. While it has the same components, it has a different BIOS specifically to run with Mac. I've been told by PNY that a standard Quadro FX 4800 will not run on the Mac.

23 September 2009 11:49  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

To Greg Corke,

Yes, I understand it is not identical, but to my original point, Apple is openly advertising a configuration for Solidworks on a Mac, I am very curious if anyone has tested this setup before making a substantial investment myself.

From apple.com, in the diplays and graphics part of the apple store:

Paraphrased:
"Apple Recommends for..... Boot Camp users running applications such as AutoCAD, Inventor, SolidWorks, 3ds Max or other professional applications that require professional (certified) graphics boards."

Thanks.

11 November 2009 04:02  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Agreed. This is the biggest step to date Apple has taken to push SW on a mac. We need a write up or test!!!

11 November 2009 04:04  

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